Notice: Any comments made by me, are my own, and should not be construed to be those of anyone else, or any organization or association.

Wednesday, August 26, 2009

Church and State

What a topic! On the way home today, I was listening to a radio talk show, and this was the general topic. On the air, was someone representing the Freedom From Religion Foundation. They profess to be protecting the constitutional principle of the separation of state and church.

Now, as I often will do, I offer this disclaimer: I am NOT a constitutional or historical scholar. So with that, take what you wish from my words and viewpoints.

Being the simple man that I am, I tend to look at this subject is a simplistic way, trying to imagine what our forefathers were wanting to accomplish with our most precious national document. I also think we should not stray from the spirit of that document, and instead, find ways in our modern world to go back and really apply those ideas and principles, and spirit, to our country today. I believe it can be, and should be, done.

So, just what does the Constitution say about the so-called, "separation of church and state"? Well, as it was written, it states, "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; ..." Well, I do not see today, anywhere, that our Congress has established a religion. Where is it that the "state", by way of Congress, has established a religion? Where is it, that Congress, or any state or city, has established a religion? Does a prayer, establish a religion? Do the words, In God We Trust, establish a religion? And, who has been denied ANY governmental services, or even protection, because they were not of a particular religious persuasion?

If you look at the word, establish", one can easily find as part of the definition,
1 : something established: as a : a settled arrangement; especially : a code of laws b : established church

Wouldn't a government who would "establish" a religion, have that same religion as part of some established order and cause its people to acknowledge their religion, before receiving some part of the government's graces in services, protection, or other benefits?

It would also seem to me, that there should be some kind of "harm" that such inferences to God in a public prayer, aside from just being offended, should be shown in a measurable way, before demanding that the inference be removed. The 1st Amendment does NOT protect people from being offended. And that, my friends and readers, is what this is really all about. Some people don't want religion in any public view and it offends them that God might be somehow lurking around, watching them! The fact is, no one has been harmed. No one has been denied ANY services or protection, because God somehow is mentioned in the public arena.

Our Founders, knew that men are weak and subject to corruption. Our Founders, knew that it could only be by the guidance of a higher power, of a higher power of conscience and of right and wrong, that people might....MIGHT....keep that higher power in mind when conducting ourselves with out fellow citizens.

Let's face it, while there are those who hate the mention of God, where DO we get our foundation of right and wrong? Where are the writings of how to treat our fellow man, if not in the writings of someone referring to some higher power. Man, is weak. Man, is corruptible. Man, without someone higher to answer to, will drift towards self above others. It is God, in what ever religion you may find him, that sits on our shoulders and whispers to us when we might stray from what is right or wrong.

God, is mankind's "father". And like a loving father, God guides us and is our conscience. But we are free to choose and free to disobey. Man surely has, and surely will. But that is not to say we should strive to follow the teachings of His word.

What would be our right and wrong foundation, otherwise? What else is it seated? By what other measure, do we know right and wrong? Without God, or that higher power of justice, would we even have laws?

I'm sorry. I've strayed. My point is this. For about 235 years, there has been NO government established religion. NO ONE, has to follow any particular religion, and NO ONE has been denied services or protections, or any of their RIGHTS, by a prayer, the mention of God in a public place, or the word God on our currency and landmarks. Sorry if that offends you, but if it does, then you offend me. But you have a right to follow no religion, if you wish.

Before I conclude, I will say that I DO NOT want our government to dictate what religion I must follow. We sure don't need a religion that dictates that we cut off your head for following some other religion. Or be denied rights, because we didn't follow some religious doctrine. We can see that in bombings elsewhere! Our government has not, and should never, dictate a religion to follow. THAT would be an establishment!

God Bless You!
Dan

4 comments:

  1. Courts continue to rule in favor of the Freedom From Religion Foundation because they are right. Stop "trying to imagine what our forefathers were wanting to accomplish" and read the document. Don't try to give the document a spirit. Lawyers and politicians wrote it so that you don't have to look for spirit between the lines.

    "No law respecting the establishment" of religion does not mean establishing religion. The word you are looking for is the noun "establishment", not the verb "establish". Analyze the sentence that way and it will make more sense.

    Even though most of us may need a higher power watching over us to stay in check, those people shouldn't be running our government. People that DON'T need that grand detective in the sky to do their job honestly and without reporoach is the kind of people I want in charge. Give me an atheist who answers to his constituents over a beleiver that answers to god any day.

    David in Sarasota

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  2. Well friend, I seem to have hit a sore spot for you.

    Let me ask, have YOU been harmed by the references to God, or the Almighty, or His hand, or any of the vast number of mentions of that spiritual being by anyone in government?

    Do those words, by someone in a high office, offend you? Would you prefer that person to have been without faith? Would you have preferred he lead and guide us with less gratitude of his God?

    Or, do you not think our 1st President was a good leader and President? In his first Inaugural Address, in 1789, he spoke quit well of the Almighty hand that guided him. He displayed a thankfulness for Him.

    Deny it all you want, but this nation was founded on the basic principles of Christianity. The profound nature of their writings, and the crafting of our Constitution, was so that even with their own views and feeling about God, this nation would not be ruled by a religious order. And, guess what... it ISN'T!

    Hey Pard...check this out - "And may that Being who is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Fountain of Justice, and the Protector in all ages of the world of virtuous liberty, continue His blessing upon this nation and its Government and give it all possible success and duration consistent with the ends of His providence." John Adams, from his 1797 Inaugural Address.

    Or...."And may that Infinite Power which rules the destinies of the universe lead our councils to what is best, and give them a favorable issue for your peace and prosperity." From Thomas Jefferson's 1801 Inaugural Address.

    And...."I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land, and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life; who has covered our infancy with his providence, and our riper years with his wisdom and power; and to whose goodness I ask you to join with me in supplications, that he will so enlighten the minds of your servants, guide their councils, and prosper their measures, that whatsoever they do, shall result in your good, and shall secure to you the peace, friendship, and approbation of all nations.", from 1805.

    Did I have to "imagine" their words? Nope. They are right there, in historical documents preserved for us to read and understand the spirit of their intent.

    Sadly, you read WORDS, and don't read the intent of the context. More sadly, you may not "feel" the spirit of this great nation, and the rough road that many traveled in bringing us this far.

    I love my country. I am in awe, of those who crafted such documents to help guide us in our daily work at finishing the sculpture of a young nation in constant development, but within the confines of its intended design.

    BY the way...I did read it again, as I have many times before, and the actual wording stands...and we STILL...the government has MADE NO LAW respecting the establishment of religion ... SHOW me where it has made such a law! SHOW ME!!!

    There is NO LAW requiring that any citizen to follow any religion, or no religion. NONE. And who has been denied ANYTHING, because God, or some reference to the Almighty?

    As for, "Give me an atheist who answers to his constituents over a beleiver that answers to god any day." .... I'll take George Washington any day.

    Thanks for the contribution. And guess what ....you could do it without the fear of having your car blown up with you in it! Is this a great country...or what! (Don't try this in Iran folks!)

    God Bless You!

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  3. Thanks for the opportunity for this exchange of ideas Hunter. BTW-I have no sore spot and it does not make your argument stronger to suggest so.

    As we progress, this, and all nations, will find that better guidance comes from leaders who have faith in science and fact, not in the religious leaders of the past who were biased and served to gain from unchallenged indoctrination of the masses.

    People should free their mind of the fiction and myths of the bible. If the stories of the good book are so usefull why do people today that claim the same experiences get treated for mental conditions instead of gaining our praise and admiration?

    Also, you must agree that leaders back then had to hide their true feelings in public, too, as it is today. Check out these quotes to match yours:

    John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815--"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"

    Everyone should websearch for "Nature's God" for some good info on life before Darwin.

    Thomas Jefferson, letter to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813--"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

    Lastly, I did not suggest that any law respecting the establishment of religion has been made. I do suggest we all ensure that this continues to be the case.

    And may your god bless you.

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  4. You're welcome here anytime. While I would not try to convert you, and you won't me, this debate in extremely important.

    THIS is what America is about. We shall continue to disagree, but not at the cost of yelling trash and hate speech.

    This debate is also just as important ... even if you are wrong (haha)... because while you and I disagree, the DEBATE and DISAGREEMENT is part of what keeps such government(s) from encroaching upon citizen's rights. It has already, and all parties are guilty.

    While it matters little to anyone else, I am not a Bible thumper, and would be hard pressed to find my way to church very often. But I am a Christian and DO believe that my God does bless me. And, I believe he blesses you. Rest assured though, he will be having a real heart-to-heart when my day comes.

    Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

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